10 October 2016

New 341 Hearing Location for Oshkosh Chapter 13s

Right on the heels of writing this post about why some hearings are held inside an airport conference room... we received news today that the hearing location would be moved effective January 2017.

Hearings next year will be held at:
Winnebago County Courthouse
415 Jackson St.
Room 500
Oshkosh, WI 54901

The CHANGE only affects people who are filing Chapter 13 and who reside in Winnebago, Outagamie, Fond Du Lac, Waupaca, Waushara, Green Lake, and Marquette Counties.  However, this means that all debtors filing for bankruptcy who reside in the aforementioned counties - both Chapter 7 and Chapter 13 - will have their hearings at the Winnebago County Courthouse (just different room numbers).

The Oshkosh Chapter 13 calendar is typically the last Friday of the month.  Therefore, I will not update the map on this page until the end of 2016, since people with hearings in these final months of 2016 may still need directions to Wittman Regional Airport, and folks on the January 27th calendar will have plenty of time to check back for updated information on that page.

Hearings are typically scheduled about 4-6 weeks out.  If you reside in one of the counties listed above and are about to file for Chapter 13 bankruptcy, expect that your hearing will be at the Winnebago County Courthouse and NOT Wittman airport if you file your bankruptcy case toward the end of December 2016 or later.

03 October 2016

Electronic Documents

Electronic documents are awesome.  They're friendlier to the environment.  They're cheaper than the cost of paper and ink / toner.  They're easier to store and take up less space.

Over the past several years, I've embraced several methods to reduce physical paperwork in my office and switch over to electronic documents whenever possible - and I will continue to do so.

However, there are two types of documents that I frequently receive from clients that need to stop:

  1. Documents requiring your signature.  If I send you a document that needs to be signed, I need to have the original "wet" signature returned to me.  That means either mailing it back or dropping it off in person.  Unless you're digitally signing a document using e-sign equipment in my office, all ink-signed documents should be returned to my office in actual paper and ink form.  Note - most documents do not require your signature.  I can take pay-stubs, tax returns, vehicle titles, real estate documents - all of this stuff electronically.  But any special forms, affidavits - anything that needs to be filed directly with the bankruptcy court and requiring your signature - those items I need to get the originals back on.
  2. Photographs of Documents.  Admittedly, this one isn't so much a rule as it is an annoyance.  The image quality of most cell phone pictures of documents I receive is not very good, and the image is distorted if the document is folded at all.  Converting image files to PDFs that retain enough image quality to be readable by the Trustee is sometimes not possible.  And even when it is, it's enough of a hassle as to not be worth it.  If you don't have a scanner - that's fine.  Bring the document in to my office and let me scan it.  There's no charge for it, and I'll have a clean, high quality image to send to the Trustee.

19 September 2016

August Foreclosure Statistics

Foreclosure filings in the state of Wisconsin jumped up 27% over July to a four month high last month.  In August, foreclosure filings for Brown County (Green Bay) increased 58%, up almost triple in Calumet and Marinette, more than tripled in Langlade, up ten-fold in Kewaunee, and doubled in Manitowoc.

12 September 2016

Fundamental Misunderstandings

No one expects the average person without legal training and experience to be an expert on bankruptcy.  I have, however, encountered a number of questions in the past couple of weeks that demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding of what bankruptcy is and how it works.  So I thought now would be a good time to clarify a few things.

"Am I likely to win my bankruptcy case?"  OR  "How will the Trustee decide if my bankruptcy goes through or not?"

Bankruptcy is NOT an adversarial area of law - at least not in the vast majority of cases.  Bankruptcy is highly bureaucratic, and although it technically doesn't fall into the realm of "administrative law", that's basically what it is.

In bankruptcy, an individual files a petition with the bankruptcy court.  Once filed, a discharge is PRESUMED to be the end-result, and really only doesn't happen in a small set of circumstances and mostly only if/when a creditor or other party objects to that discharge.

Assuming you've hired an attorney to determine that you meet eligibility requirements, disclosed all of the relevant information, provided all of necessary paperwork, etc. - the rest of process should be relatively simple.  A lot of "pro forma" stuff to make sure all of the i's have been dotted and t's crossed.  There are opportunities for creditors to file objections, or for the Trustee to object to exemptions, or for disputes over the Means Test.  But in the majority of cases, these things never happen.  A good and experienced bankruptcy attorney will have already litigated the case before he files the bankruptcy case, ensuring that whatever issues may affect your bankruptcy case and your ultimate result have been addressed or mitigated in some way before the petition is filed.

In other words, this isn't a "win" or "lose" situation.  You get the discharge automatically unless someone steps in and objects to the discharge.  Furthermore, the Trustee doesn't make any sort of determination about your discharge or qualifications.  Trustees (especially in Chapter 7) are there to take your testimony and look for assets or preferences that he/she can recover - that's it.  The scope of their duty is extremely limited.

"How do my creditors get paid?"

There MIGHT be payments to unsecured creditors if you file Chapter 13, or if your Chapter 7 case has non-exempt assets or recoverable preferences.  Also, you might reaffirm secured debts or other debts might not be dischargeable, and therefore you'll remain responsible for them after your case is filed.  But I'm not talking about any of these exceptions.

There is a common misconception that whatever is "discharged" in bankruptcy must be paid from somewhere.  And that is not the case.  A bankruptcy discharge is basically a formal court order that requires most of your creditors to write-off the debts you owe them without being paid, and to cease and desist any further collection efforts for those debts.

Creditors make their money from interest and other miscellaneous fees they charge, and if a lender's business is doing well, those forms of revenue will wash out any debts that get discharged in bankruptcy.

"How/when does the judge determine what debts are discharged?"

Again, I'm going to stick to Chapter 7 just to keep things easy and clean.  Many of these questions get a bit more complicated when we talk about Chapter 13.

Most debts are dischargeable.  This includes secured debts, such as mortgages and auto loans.  Most people will "reaffirm" on secured loans (and continue to pay them) in order to retain the collateral that secures the loan.  Reaffirmed debts are not discharged by virtue of the reaffirmation agreement.

Apart from that, the bankruptcy code specifically lists all of the types of debts that are not dischargeable.  That list can be found at 11 U.S.C. § 523.  It's a pretty long list, but for most people, there are only three types of debts that aren't discharged: student loans, certain taxes, and domestic support obligations.

Of the items listed under section 523, all of them except for three are statutory.  That means that if you owe a student loan, it is automatically not part of the discharge.  Your student loan creditor is not required to go to bankruptcy court and have their debt declared non-dischargeable - it's automatic.  No judicial determination required.

If a creditor asserts that their debt is non-dischargeable under any of those subsections, and you disagree, you can file an action with the bankruptcy court for a violation of the discharge injunction, and then have the court rule whether or not the debt in question is non-dischargeable.

There are only three subsections of 523 that require a judicial determination: 523(a)(2), 523(a)(4), and 523(a)(6).  523(a)(2) is for fraudulently-incurred debt.  523(a)(4) is for fraud committed while acting in a fiduciary capacity.  523(a)(6) is for willful or malicious injury.  Any creditor who wants their debt declared non-dischargeable under one of those three subsections must get the judge to make a ruling in their favor.

06 September 2016

Why is my hearing at the airport (and other fun questions about hearing locations)?!

I'm writing this article to address the bewilderment some of my clients have about the fact that their bankruptcy hearing location is at an airport.  Understandably, some of them feel that the bankruptcy process is illegitimate or some sort of a scam on account of it.  So I'm going to explain why some hearings are held at the airport and why they aren't held somewhere else.

But while I'm at it, I also thought this would be a good opportunity to answer some other common questions about bankruptcy hearing locations.

The first thing that is important to understand is that bankruptcy is a matter of federal law and the federal court system, not state law and the state court system.

There are 72 counties in the state of Wisconsin, each with their own state-level courts.  However, the state of Wisconsin only has two federal districts - the Eastern District of Wisconsin and the Western District of Wisconsin.  The border between the two districts follows county lines, and a map showing the border is below.

Eastern District in red; Western District in green.
The county you reside in not only determines which federal district you're filing in, but it also determines where your hearing location will be.  For instance, a resident of Milwaukee county will attend hearings in Milwaukee.  However, there are only a handful of hearing locations, and there is not a hearing location in every single county.  Therefore, the county you reside in is not necessarily the county in which your hearing will be held.  For example, someone residing in Appleton (Outagamie County) will have their hearing in Oshkosh (Winnebago County) because there is no hearing location in Outagamie County.

To give another example - Green Bay is the northern-most hearing location in the Eastern District of Wisconsin, so the residents of about a dozen counties (Brown, Calumet, Door, Florence, Forest, Kewaunee, Langlade, Manitowoc, Marinette, Menominee, Octonto, and Shawano) all have their hearings in Green Bay.

When I describe these hearing locations, I'm referring to the "§ 341 Meeting of Creditors" (coloquially referred to as a "341 hearing" or just "meeting of creditors").  (Don't let the name scare you - creditors almost never make appearances at these hearings, and in the rare instances that they do, it's even rarer that their appearance signifies a problem in your case.)  None of what I'm describing includes judicial hearings.  Describing the hearing locations for judicial hearings gets really complicated given all of the various videoconference and telephone hearings that are allowed, the different types of judicial hearings, and so forth.  And since the overwhelming majority of people who file for bankruptcy will never have to appear at a judicial hearing (or meet their bankruprcy judge, for that matter), describing the judicial hearing locations is an unnecessary layer of complexity.  Just know that I'm only talking about the 341 Hearings and that in the off chance you have to attend a judicial hearing, the location will almost certainly be somewhere else.

The 341 Hearings / Meetings of Creditors are what we refer to as an "administrative hearing".  They are presided over by trustees, not judges.  They are seldom ever held in actual courtrooms.  More often, they are held in meeting spaces and conference rooms in governmental buildings.  For example, Chapter 7 cases in the Oshkosh location are held in a meeting room in the Winnebago County courthouse.  Green Bay hearings are held in rooms at the state office building or city hall.  Milwaukee hearings are held at the federal courthouse, but in conference rooms, not courtrooms.

Which brings us to Wittman Regional Airport - the odd duck out.  Chapter 13s assigned to the Oshkosh hearing location (folks from Outagamie, Winnebago, Waupaca, Waushara, Green Lake, Marquette, and Fond du Lac counties) are held in the closed-off gate area at Wittman Regional Airport.

Many years ago, they were also held at the Winnebago County Courthouse, just like the Chapter 7 cases were.  About 8 or 9 years ago, the hearing locations were moved to the airport.  As I understand it, there were frequent scheduling conflicts with the Winnebago County Courthouse that caused the change of venue.  But why the airport and not another location?  Well - that seemed to be a matter of pragmatism for the Chapter 13 trustee, whose office is located on the other side of the freeway from the airport.  In contrast to Chapter 7s where there is a rotating bench of panel trustees - there are only two Chapter 13 trustees in the Eastern District - and only one of them gets assigned all of the cases for the Green Bay and Oshkosh locations.  So in this instance, convenience seemed to be the driving point for the selection of Wittman.

It's admittedly an unconventional choice, but it serves its purpose: a private and quiet meeting area that is publicly accessible where the trustee can hold hearings.  If you're unfamiliar with Wittman, it is a very tiny and unused airport 51 weeks out of the year - and hearings are purposely not scheduled during the week of the EAA Airventure.

29 August 2016

Informal Bankruptcy Protections

When a bankruptcy case is filed with the court, an "automatic stay" kicks in which protects you from most debt collection efforts.  The automatic stay is temporary and applies while the bankruptcy case is pending.  In most cases, the automatic stay protections are them replaced by the permanent protections offered by the bankruptcy discharge.

But even before you file your bankruptcy case, just knowing that you intend to file for bankruptcy is often enough to deter most creditors from attempting to collect against you for your debts.  Although technically and legally most are allowed to continue to make collection efforts, most will stop once they can confirm that you have indeed hired an attorney to file for bankruptcy - as a pragmatic matter.

Why would your creditor stop pursuing you for a debt if they are legally entitled to pursue you?

Let's say I'm a collection agent for Acme Collections, LLC.  I've been attempting to collect a $500 debt from you for the past 6 months to no avail.  Seeing no other recourse, I'm thinking about filing a lawsuit against you in small claims court to recover the $500.  Yes, it will cost my company money to file the lawsuit - my company will have to pay court filing fees, pay for an attorney to file the paperwork, and other costs incidental to the lawsuit - but most (if not all) of those costs can be added to the bill I'm trying to collect.  So what may have started out as a $500 debt will become a $1300 debt if my company is successful in obtaining a judgment against you.

But what if you tell me that you've retained an attorney to file for bankruptcy?  I call your attorney and confirm that yes, you did in fact hire that attorney.  The bankruptcy case isn't filed yet, so technically, my company can still file a lawsuit against you.  But should we?

Well, probably not.  My company is already short the $500 you owe it.  If it invests the time and money into filing a lawsuit - even if my company prevails and gets a judgment against you - that judgment can be discharged in the bankruptcy case.  My company's only hope is to rush through the lawsuit, garnish as much of your wages as it can before you file for bankruptcy, and hope that it doesn't have to turn over the money as a recoverable preference.  Not at all likely.

So without even filing for bankruptcy, just the fact that you have hired an attorney to begin the process of filing for bankruptcy is enough to deter my company from filing a lawsuit against you.  In all likelihood, my company will sit back and wait for its notice that the bankruptcy case has been filed.

So what's the lesson to be learned here?  If you're planning to file for bankruptcy and you've hired an attorney - make sure your creditors know it - particularly the ones who haven't yet invested the time or money to file a lawsuit against you.  Don't ignore phone calls.  Make sure that you always refer your creditors to your bankruptcy attorney.

22 August 2016

If I'm bankrupt, how can I afford to hire an attorney for bankruptcy?

Filing for bankruptcy protection without an attorney is a treacherous venture into a legal minefield.  Neither the trustee nor the court can provide you legal advice or counsel, and essentially there is no one involved in the process who can look out for your rights and best interests.

Although most of the bankruptcy forms are relatively self-explanatory, there are any number of places where you could land yourself into trouble by inadvertent omission or error.  Schedule C (your property exemptions) and the Form 122 (the means test) are nearly impossible to do without legal training and access to the resources you need to know the relevant and applicable numbers.  Furthermore, the forms cannot fully convey the myriad of information concerning deadlines, documents, what to look out for (issue spotting), or even ensuring that you've asked yourself all of the questions you need to ask yourself.  There are limits in how much information and strategies you can glean from the forms, and the forms don't provide you access to the bankruptcy statutes nor all of the case law that may be relevant to your case.  There are many tricks and strategies attorneys develop over their entire careers to address all of the various issues that can crop up, and if you choose to file without an attorney, you're denying yourself access to that wealth of information.

But attorneys do not come cheap, particularly to someone who is struggling to pay their bills.  Here are the top three tricks that most people use to pay for their bankruptcy case.


There are exceptions to every rule, but in virtually every bankruptcy case, you will be advised by your attorney - as a matter of course - to stop making payments on your unsecured debts in anticipation of your bankruptcy filing.  This advice is not given because the attorney wants these funds, but because there are actual legal impacts to a bankruptcy case if you continue to pay your unsecured creditors - referred to as "preference payments".  To say nothing of the fact that you're throwing away money on debts that will ultimately be discharged in your bankruptcy filing.  Now, most people will need to continue paying on some debts - notably secured debts like mortgages and car loans that you intend to keep - and each case is different, so defer to your attorney's advice on this matter.  But in general, you will be advised to stop making payments on your credit card bills, medical bills, payday loans, and more.  Side bonus: it frees up some money to pay for your bankruptcy case.


Most attorneys offer some sort of payment plan.  Every attorney is different in setting their own internal policies, and some are more flexible than others.  I consider myself fairly flexible - my clients can make any sort of payment with no minimum requirement and no specific due dates - provided that something is paid once a month.

Taking advantage of payment plans to retain an attorney provides you with limited formal protections under the FDCPA, but also some informal protections against creditors seeking to file lawsuits against you.  In my practice, many of my clients make smaller payments until they receive their tax refunds in the spring and use those to pay off whatever their remaining balance is - usually with plenty leftover to spare - depending on the size of their refund.


Admittedly not an option for everyone.  Even those who have access to this source may be too embarrassed to ask for the help.  But some people go this route, and there's nothing wrong or illegal about it.  However, if you do choose to borrow money from a friend or family member, make sure that you wait to pay them back until after you receive your discharge.  Payments made before your bankruptcy case is filed could be considered an "insider preference", and without getting into a lengthy discussion about that topic - suffice to say - this is not something you want to have to disclose to the trustee.  The statutes are fairly silent about money paid to insiders after a case is filed but before the discharge (the 3-4 months that a Chapter 7 case is typically pending).  To play it safe, I advise waiting until after the discharge, because the statutes expressly permit voluntary repayment of any debt.

25 July 2016

What should my credit report look like after bankruptcy?

So you've filed for bankruptcy, gotten a discharge, and pulled your credit report.  What should it look like?  Should it be blank?  Should all of your creditors be on there with a special notation?  What exactly should you expect to see?

First of all, make sure that your case is completed and you've actually received your discharge.  Many people unfamiliar with the bankruptcy process and procedures aren't clear on when the discharge actually occurs.  You will receive an official notice from a U.S. Bankruptcy Court, and the caption on the document will read "Order of Discharge" or something substantially similar.  Your attorney has also probably sent you a letter around the same time confirming in clear language that you've received your discharge and that he will be closing out your file and concluding representation.  If you're not sure, you can always call your attorney to confirm whether you've received your discharge or not.  If you filed a Chapter 7 Bankruptcy case, the discharge is issued about 2 months after your hearing with the Trustee.

Second, after you've received your discharge, I would wait a few months before pulling your credit report.  Some creditors will notate your account as being discharged right away after your case is filed.  That's an internal procedural practice some creditors have.  Most wait until you actually receive your discharge (just in case you don't get it), because legally, that's when certain debts are - permanently - no longer collectible.

All right, so let's take a simple and common example.  You've filed a Chapter 7 Bankruptcy, you've gotten your discharge, and you've waited a few months to pull your credit report.  In the bankruptcy, you reaffirmed on your mortgage and car loan, and you had a single student loan that you knew wouldn't be discharged in the bankruptcy case.  Everything else you had - credit cards, medical bills, payday loans, etc. - should have been discharged.

First, pull the credit reports.  You are entitled to a free report from all three major credit bureaus (TransUnion, Experian, and Equifax) once every 12 months under the FACT Act.  To access those free reports, go to http://www.annualcreditreport.com/.

What is described below is based on the formats used in July 2016 - these may change over time.

The Bankruptcy Itself

All three reports have a section on Public Records, and this is where a notation about your bankruptcy case will reside for up to 10 years after your case is filed.  On the Experian report, it won't be labeled as Public Records, but it will show up near the top of the report.

Reaffirmed / Non-Dischargeable Debts

These should appear exactly as they had before you filed for bankruptcy, plus whatever payments have been made since the last time you pulled your report.  So any reaffirmed mortgages or car loans that you've continued to make payments on, any student loans or other non-dischargeable debts that were not affected by your bankruptcy case - these will all continue to show up as they had in the past.

Old Accounts Settled / Closed Prior to Bankruptcy

In the reports we examined, accounts that had been satisfied, paid in full, transferred to another creditor, or closed - all continued to appear on the credit report.

Debts Discharged in Bankruptcy

In none of the credit reports did any of the debts discharged in bankruptcy show up in any way, shape, or form on the credit reports - save for one, which was never the debtor's account in the first place and erroneously reported; although that creditor was listed on the debtor's bankruptcy schedules for good measure.

11 July 2016

7 Year Myth

Quite often, clients believe that a bankruptcy case will only remain on their credit report for 7 years and/or that 7 years is the period of time someone must wait before filing another bankruptcy case.

  • A bankruptcy remains on your credit report for up to 10 years.
  • Someone who files for Chapter 7 bankruptcy and receives a discharge must wait 8 years before filing for another Chapter 7 bankruptcy.

The source of confusion for the first one appears to be linked to a general 7 year rule about how long old debt can be reported on your credit report.  Generally speaking, if you file for bankruptcy, most if not all of the debts that were discharged in your bankruptcy should no longer show up on your credit report at all after 7 years, even though the bankruptcy case itself will linger and continue to be reported for another 3 years.

Your credit score, however, may rehabilitate much faster.  Depending on your financial circumstances, what - if any - debts survive your bankruptcy (either because you reaffirmed on them, or because they couldn't be discharged), and how well you manage your credit after bankruptcy - many people find that their credit score has rebounded somewhat within about 12 months.

As for the 8 year refiling prohibition, please remember that 8 years assumes that both the first and second cases were Chapter 7 cases, and that the debtor received a discharge in the first bankruptcy case.  If there was no discharge in the first case (it was only filed, but dismissed without a discharge), then these time limits do not apply.  Other limits may apply, depending on how soon after the first case is dismissed you attempt to file the second case.

If either the first, second, or both cases are a Chapter 13, then that time period can be shortened from 8 years to 6, 4, or 2 years.  Also, you can be eligible to file a Chapter 13 case even if you're not eligible to receive discharge.  And these questions get a lot more complicated if either the first case is converted from one chapter to another (which I cover extensively here).

04 July 2016

Unfiled Claims in Chapter 13

No creditor who doesn't file a proof of claim will be paid by a Chapter 13 Trustee.

Let me repeat that...

No creditor who doesn't file a proof of claim will be paid by a Chapter 13 Trustee.

What does that mean?

Let's say John Doe has 4 credit cards, one with Wells Fargo, one with Chase, one with Bank of America, and one with HSBC.  Let's also say that each one has a balance owed of $5,000 - or a grand total of $20,000.

Let's further pretend that John files a Chapter 13 Bankruptcy which proposes to pay 10% to each of his unsecured creditors.  If Wells Fargo, Chase, BoA, and HSBC all file claims, then each will get 10% of their claims, or about $500 each and a total of $2,000.

But what happens if BoA doesn't file a claim?  Then there are only $15,000 in claims.  John still pays the $2,000 that his disposable income was calculated out to.  But now the 3 creditors who did file claims (Wells Fargo, Chase, and HSBC) all share that $2,000 - $667 each.  That means that each creditor gets paid 13% of their claims - except BoA who gets paid $0 because they didn't file a claim.

What if BoA is the only creditor who files a claim?  Well, then John is still paying the $2,000 of disposable income, but now BoA is getting paid 40% of their $5,000 claim, while each of the other 3 creditors gets paid $0.

In short - John Doe pays the exact same amount - $2,000 - no matter which creditors file claims or how many creditors file claims.  But if certain creditors don't bother to file claims - they don't get paid, and the creditors that did file claims get paid a bigger share.

What if we keep the facts exactly the same, but instead of $2,000, John's disposable income shakes out to $7,000 over the life of his Chapter 13 case?  $7,000 is 35% of $20,000, so if all creditors file claims, they'll get 35%, or $1,750 each.

But now let's say again that only BoA files a claim.  Their total claim is $5,000, which is less than the $7,000 in disposable income that John has to pay his unsecured creditors.  BoA gets paid their claim in full - at 100%.  Since there are no other claims to pay, his Chapter 13 Plan ends early, and he gets to keep the extra $2,000.  The other 3 creditors are shit out of luck.

Now, all of this is overly simplistic because we're assuming nothing but unsecured and dischargeable creditors.  Let's stop talking about hypothetical numbers and start discussing the issues that affect the analysis.

  1. In the above examples, we're assuming that John Doe is eligible for a discharge.  If he is, then whatever is not paid to these 4 creditors (whether they files a claim or not) is wiped out upon receipt of the discharge.  These 4 creditors cannot pursue John for the unpaid balances after his bankruptcy is over.
  2. What if John isn't eligible for a discharge?  Maybe he filed a prior bankruptcy case too recently.  Maybe he failed to complete his financial management course.  Maybe he fell behind on child support after his bankruptcy case was filed.  Or maybe he failed to make his plan payments and his case got dismissed.  Without a discharge, creditors can then pursue John for any unpaid balances owed after his bankruptcy is over - whether they filed a claim or not.
  3. If a debt is non-dischargeable (like a student loan) and they don't file a claim, the debt is still non-dischargeable, which means the full balance and interest will be due when John exits bankruptcy.  Since student loans share the same dividend of funds as other unsecured creditors, it is in John's interest to make sure his student loan creditors file claims so that they can at least get paid down a bit - and to reduce the amount of money his other dischargeable creditors can get their hands on.
  4. Remember the example where BoA got paid in full, John still had $2k in disposable income, but since the other 3 creditors didn't file claims, they got paid $0?  Why don't those creditors file claims then?  Because all creditors are under a deadline to file their claims.  Once that deadline has passed, they can't file a claim - no matter what else may have changed about the debtor's bankruptcy case.  If the creditor was not duly notified of the bankruptcy in time to file a claim, then their claim is likely going to be non-dischargeable.  But if they were duly notified and chose not to file claims on-time, it's their loss.